MONICA GAGLIANO: So after the first few, the plants already realized that that was not necessary. They would salivate and then eat the meat. JAD: The thing I don't get is in animals, the hairs in our ear are sending the signals to a brain and that is what chooses what to do. They're one of our closest relatives, actually. ROBERT: Just for example. Robert Krulwich. It was like -- it was like a huge network. All right, my hypothesis is that what happens is You got somewhere to go? Or maybe slower? It's an integral part of DNA. JENNIFER FRAZER: This all has a history, of course. No. SUZANNE SIMARD: We had a Geiger counter out there. Let him talk. I'm gonna just go there. So these trees were basically covered with bags that were then filled with radioactive gas. They still did not close when she dropped them. JENNIFER FRAZER: The fungi needs sugar to build their bodies, the same way that we use our food to build our bodies. MONICA GAGLIANO: Exactly. The Ubells see this happening all the time. Can you make your own food? So the deer's like, "Oh, well. Like, they don't have ears or a brain or anything like, they couldn't hear like we hear. JENNIFER FRAZER: I am the blogger of The Artful Amoeba at Scientific American. That's the place where I remember things. Ring, meat, eat. Huh. ROBERT: And when you look at the map, what you see are circles sprouting lines and then connecting to other circles also sprouting lines. Fan, light, lean. I don't know if you're a bank or if you're an -- so it's not necessarily saying, "Give it to the new guy." It was like, "Oh, I might disturb my plants!" JAD: What exchange would that be, Robert? No boink anymore. They have to -- have to edit in this together. ROBERT: And this? An expert. But what I do know is that the fact that the plant doesn't have a brain doesn't -- doesn't a priori says that the plants can't do something. We need to take a break first, but when we come back, the parade that I want you to join will come and swoop you up and carry you along in a flow of enthusiasm. This is the headphones? That's a parade I'll show up for. There's not a leak in the glass. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, we dig into the work of evolutionary ecologist Monica Gagliano, who turns our brain-centered worldview on its head through a series of clever experiments that show plants doing things we never would've imagined. And she goes into that darkened room with all the pea plants. I mean, to say that a plant is choosing a direction, I don't know. And of course we had to get Jigs out. And then someone has to count. Then we actually had to run four months of trials to make sure that, you know, that what we were seeing was not one pea doing it or two peas, but it was actually a majority. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah. And she goes on to argue that had we been a little bit more steady and a little bit more consistent, the plants would have learned and would have remembered the lesson. This is the fungus. ROBERT: And the idea was, she wanted to know like, once the radioactive particles were in the tree, what happens next? Well, okay. To remember? And the pea plants are left alone to sit in this quiet, dark room feeling the breeze. So he brought them some meat. And why would -- why would the fungi want to make this network? JENNIFER FRAZER: Plants are really underrated. Or maybe it's the fungus under the ground is kind of like a broker and decides who gets what. Imagine towering trees to your left and to your right. It just kept curling. They learned something. Bye everybody. She says one of the weirdest parts of this though, is when sick trees give up their food, the food doesn't usually go to their kids or even to trees of the same species. ROBERT: And some of them, this is Lincoln Taiz LINCOLN TAIZ: I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. You found exactly what the plants would do under your circumstances which were, I don't know, let's say a bit more tumultuous than mine. So they might remember even for a much longer time than 28 days. Turns the fan on, turns the light on, and the plant turns and leans that way. And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. Then we actually had to run four months of trials to make sure that, you know, that what we were seeing was not one pea doing it or two peas, but it was actually a majority. But they do have root hairs. They can go north, south, east, west, whatever. But I wonder if her using these metaphors is perhaps a very creative way of looking at -- looking at a plant, and therefore leads her to make -- make up these experiments that those who wouldn't think the way she would would ever make up. Oh. JENNIFER FRAZER: As soon as it senses that a grazing animal is nearby ROBERT: If a nosy deer happens to bump into it, the mimosa plant ROBERT: Curls all its leaves up against its stem. Jennifer told Latif and I about another role that these fungi play. And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. SUZANNE SIMARD: Like, nitrogen and phosphorus. ROBERT: So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes MONICA GAGLIANO: All sorts of randomness. You know, it goes back to anthropomorphizing plant behaviors. JAD: Couldn't it just be an entirely different interpretation here? ROBERT: Then she placed the fan right next to the light so that MONICA GAGLIANO: The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. . ROBERT: And the salivation equivalent was the tilt of the plant? All in all, turns out one tree was connected to 47 other trees all around it. And for the meat substitute, she gave each plant little bit of food. It's doing like a triple double axel backflip or something into the sky. Okay. Then Monica hoists the plant back up again and drops it again. I don't know. And her family included a dog named Jigs. But it was originally done with -- with a dog. And right in the middle of the yard is a tree. ROBERT: That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. Her use of metaphor. LINCOLN TAIZ: It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. ROBERT: A little while back, I had a rather boisterous conversation with these two guys. They would salivate and then eat the meat. They were actually JENNIFER FRAZER: Tubes. ROBERT: Had indeed turned and moved toward the fan, stretching up their little leaves as if they were sure that at any moment now light would arrive. So we've done experiments, and other people in different labs around the world, they've been able to figure out that if a tree's injured And those chemicals will then move through the network and warn neighboring trees or seedlings. ROBERT: Like, would they figure it out faster this time? Because I have an appointment. Well, maybe. But still. So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes She found that the one stimulus that would be perfect was A little fan. Is it ROBERT: This is like metaphor is letting in the light as opposed to shutting down the blinds. This story was nurtured and fed and ultimately produced by Annie McEwen. Well, it depends on who you ask. ROBERT: Two very different options for our plant. I have even -- I can go better than even that. Yeah. It involves a completely separate organism I haven't mentioned yet. ROBERT: And she goes into that darkened room with all the pea plants. We're sitting on the exposed root system, which is like -- it is like a mat. And ROBERT: Since he was so deep down in there. Well, some of them can first of all, and big deal. ROBERT: Monica's work has actually gotten quite a bit of attention from other plant biologists. There's not a leak in the glass. And so they have this trading system with trees. However, if that's all they had was carbon ROBERT: That's Roy again. In this conversation. And she wondered whether that was true. Walker Wolff. But what I do know is that the fact that the plant doesn't have a brain doesn't -- doesn't a priori say that the plants can't do something. In my brain. Was it possible that maybe the plants correctly responded by not opening, because something really mad was happening around it and it's like, "This place is not safe.". ROBERT: And we dropped it once and twice. Image credits: Photo Credit: Flickred! Ring, meat, eat. Today, Robert drags Jad along on a parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. Little fan goes on, the light goes on. ], [ROY HALLING: Radiolab is produced by Jad Abumrad. But they do have root hairs. But let me just -- let me give it a try. And again. JENNIFER FRAZER: They're called springtails, because a lot of them have a little organ on the back that they actually can kind of like deploy and suddenly -- boing! And moved around, but always matched in the same way together. So I'd seal the plant, the tree in a plastic bag, and then I would inject gas, so tagged with a -- with an isotope, which is radioactive. Both aiming at the pea plant from the same direction, and the pea plant leans toward them. So we're up to experiment two now, are we not? But she had a kind of, maybe call it a Jigs-ian recollection. Again, if you imagine that the pot, my experimental pot. Coming up on the Plant Parade, we get to the heart -- or better yet, the root -- of a very specific type of plant. Very similar to the sorts of vitamins and minerals that humans need. And they, you know, they push each other away so they can get to the sky. 37 minutes Posted Jul 8, 2021 at 7:35 am. 37:51. You just used a very interesting word. But let me just -- let me give it a try. ALVIN UBELL: The tree will wrap its roots around that pipe. No, I guess that I feel kind of good to say this. Kind of even like, could there be a brain, or could there be ears or, you know, just sort of like going off the deep end there. No, no, no, no, no. ROBERT: Oh, hunting for water. Minerals from the soil. So I don't have an issue with that. Yeah, and I have done inspections where roots were coming up through the pipe into the house. ROBERT: So she takes the plants, she puts them into the parachute drop, she drops them. He's the only springtail with a trench coat and a fedora. It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. My name is Monica Gagliano. But after five days, she found that 80% of the time, the plants went -- or maybe chose -- to head toward the dry pipe that has water in it. Monica thought about that and designed a different experiment. LARRY UBELL: That -- that's -- that's interesting. She says a timber company would move in and clear cut an entire patch of forest, and then plant some new trees. This assignment pairs with the RadioLab podcast; specifically the Smarty Plants episode. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, wedig into the work of evolutionaryecologist Monica Gagliano, who turns ourbrain-centered worldview on its head through a series of clever experiments that show plants doing things we never would've imagined. ], [ROY HALLING: With help from Alexandra Leigh Young, Jackson Roach and Charu Sinha. So he brought them some meat. ROBERT: And Monica wondered in the plant's case MONICA GAGLIANO: If there was only the fan, would the plant ROBERT: Anticipate the light and lean toward it? MONICA GAGLIANO: Like for example, my plants were all in environment-controlled rooms, which is not a minor detail. So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes She found that the one stimulus that would be perfect was A little fan. We waiting for the leaves to, you know, stop folding. And there was a lot of skepticism at the time. Would just suck up through photosynthesis. SUZANNE SIMARD: Yes, we don't normally ascribe intelligence to plants, and plants are not thought to have brains. It seems like a no-brainer to me (pardon the unintentional pun) that they would have some very different ways of doing things similar to what animals do. He was a -- what was he? To remember? The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information int Me first. ROBERT: She says we now know that trees give each other loans. I mean, it's a kind of romanticism, I think. But white, translucent and hairy, sort of. JENNIFER FRAZER: These little soil particles. And for a long time, they were thought of as plants. So it's not that it couldn't fold up, it's just that during the dropping, it learned that it didn't need to. Yeah. So after the first few, the plants already realized that that was not necessary. ROBERT: What do you mean? The idea was to drop them again just to see, like, the difference between the first time you learn something and the next time. ROBERT: And she goes into that darkened room with all the pea plants. ROBERT: She made sure that the dirt didn't get wet, because she'd actually fastened the water pipe to the outside of the pot. Let him talk. ROBERT: The fungus were literally sucking the nitrogen out of the springtails, and it was too late to get away. That's okay. The bell, the meat and the salivation. And so the whole family and uncles and aunts and cousins, we all rush up there. I can scream my head off if I want to. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of Science and Technology in the modern world. But I wonder if her using these metaphors is perhaps a very creative way of looking at -- looking at a plant, and therefore leads her to make -- make up these experiments that those who wouldn't think the way she would would ever make up. I mean again, it's a tree. Or maybe slower? ROBERT: She says one of the weirdest parts of this though, is when sick trees give up their food, the food doesn't usually go to their kids or even to trees of the same species. So we've done experiments, and other people in different labs around the world, they've been able to figure out that if a tree's injured ROBERT: It'll cry out in a kind of chemical way. LARRY UBELL: Me first. The tree will wrap its roots around that pipe. They're all out in the forest. And so we're digging away, and Jigs was, you know, looking up with his paws, you know, and looking at us, waiting. JAD: So they just went right for the MP3 fake water, not even the actual water? That's a -- learning is something I didn't think plants could do. Now, can you -- can you imagine what we did wrong? ROBERT: Like, would they figure it out faster this time? Or even learn? ROBERT: Oh, so it says to the newer, the healthier trees, "Here's my food. And a little wind. Where would the -- a little plant even store a memory? JAD: And the plant still went to the place where the pipe was not even in the dirt? LARRY UBELL: Yeah, and I have done inspections where roots were coming up through the pipe into the house. Is it ROBERT: This is like metaphor is letting in the light as opposed to shutting down the blinds. I've always loved Radiolab. Me first. ROBERT: Is your dog objecting to my analysis? Like, as in the fish. ROY HALLING: Well, you can see the white stuff is the fungus. I think you can be open-minded but still objective. Hey, it's okay. ROBERT: So you just did what Pavlov did to a plant. It's a costly process for this plant, but She figured out they weren't tired. That something bad is happening. And I do that in my brain. They shade each other. Jad and Robert, they are split on this one. The part where the water pipe was, the pipe was on the outside of the pot? ROBERT: And some of them, this is Lincoln Taiz LINCOLN TAIZ: I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. And then all the other ones go in the same direction. So we went back to Monica. I spoke to her with our producer Latif Nasser, and she told us that this -- this network has developed a kind of -- a nice, punny sort of name. Well, when I was a kid, my family spent every summer in the forest. Monica thought about that and designed a different experiment. So she's got her plants in the pot, and we're going to now wait to see what happens. And he starts digging with his rake at the base of this tree. There was a healthier community when they were mixed and I wanted to figure out why. Maybe just a tenth the width of your eyelash. And she was willing to entertain the possibility that plants can do something like hear. That's what she says. And the salivation equivalent was the tilt of the plant? Visit your local Culver City PetSmart store for essential pet supplies like food, treats and more from top brands. We need to take a break first, but when we come back, the parade that I want you to join will come and swoop you up and carry you along in a flow of enthusiasm. But the drop was just shocking and sudden enough for the little plant to Then Monica hoists the plant back up again and drops it again. Now, can you -- can you imagine what we did wrong? Ring, meat, eat. Tubes. No, it's far more exciting than that. JENNFER FRAZER: Well, they do it because the tree has something the fungus needs, and the fungus has something the tree needs. "I'm under attack!". ROBERT: But that scientist I mentioned MONICA GAGLIANO: My name is Monica Gagliano. They remembered what had happened three days before, that dropping didn't hurt, that they didn't have to fold up. Yeah. Okay? So it wasn't touching the dirt at all. Which by the way, is definitely not a plant. So there's these little insects that lives in the soil, these just adorable little creatures called springtails. Well, it depends on who you ask. Pulled out a is that a root of some sort? Tagged #science #technology #philosophy #education #radiolab. They curve, sometimes they branch. It's like Snow White and The Seven Tubes or something. It's okay, puppy. MONICA GAGLIANO: So then at one point, when you only play the bell for the dog, or you, you know, play the fan for the plant, we know now for the dogs, the dog is expecting. 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