If your dog ate a spider and you want to ensure that you are watching for the right symptoms, good on you! Mar 21, 2010 #3 A at129 TCS Member She is a joyful being who loves her life and her family you. Just be ready to jump into action with this article to guide you! Most of the time, the average spider is digested by your dog without any problems, but its best to be safe if you dont know what hes eaten. Some said they had been bitten and nearly lost limbs. Spider bites can take a few days to appear, so remain vigilant until youre sure your dog is safe. Panic sets in. It is about 1-2.5cm long, with a lemon-pip shaded abdomen and a dull cream spot on the tip of its body. Not only can it be messy, it can also be pretty painful for your dog. A large female may reach up to 20mm in body length, males around 12mm. You can also find me on my personal blog here. G. Girt Hillbill. Features. ], Dog Ate Babybel Wax [Is There Anything You Need To Do], Paralysis (when in the lungs, this is fatal), Organ damage (kidneys, liver this is often fatal), A thorough cleaning of the area around the bite, Pain medication such as morphine or muscle relaxants. Scrape away the caked mud on the front and dig out the dirt and the debris from the bottom if you ignore the hooves for long, they can begin to hamper your horses walk. Here are some characteristics of white tail spider: This type of spider has cylindrical body. White tails that are grey in colour also sometimes have two pairs of faint white spots on the top of their dorsal abdomen, though these tend to be less distinct in adults. After this is done, switch to a soft body brush, whose bristles are soft and gentle. These spiders are common in the Pacific Northwest region of the United States. In addition to being toxic or causing Salmonella infection, a lizard may also cause a bowel obstruction, depending on how large the lizard was and the length of its tail. If the natural options arent working and your dog has a history of anxiety, contact your veterinarian to discuss medications. Depending on your dog's health and age, the infection may only be mild, or it could be severe. Sometimes a dog will make you aware of a spiders presence long before you see anything. The information on this website is intended for entertainment purposes only and does not constitute professional, medical, veterinary, or healthcare advice or diagnosis, and may not be used as such. Canidae:Is It Safe for Dogs to Eat Insects, Mercola Healthy Pets: Black Widow Spider Bite Can Kill Pets If You Don't Act Fast, Daily Dog Discoveries: My Dog Ate a Spider, Entomology at the University of Kentucky: Common Spiders Found Around Homes and Buildings, Atlantic Veterinary Hospital: The Hobo Spider - He Ain't No Charlotte. No high fees. They run and romp and are about the most adorable things ever.But, the downside of winter fun for your best bud is snow and ice balls getting matted in their fur. If a dog decides to play with one of these spiders, he has a good chance of being bitten during play or when he swallows the spider.if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'ourfitpets_com-large-leaderboard-2','ezslot_3',611,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-ourfitpets_com-large-leaderboard-2-0'); Spider venom is injected into the bloodstream, where it goes through the body. Males and juveniles often have striped legs and two or four spots at the top of the abdomen as well as the one on the tip of the tail. And if your pet does something you dont want, stop yourself from reacting by shouting or being aggressive towards her. This is why close monitoring of your dog for the next 4-48 hours is going to be key. Some other spiders that are highly poisonous to dogs include: If your dog is fond of eating insects, you may want to check your local area to see what spiders to watch out for. Avoid direct sunlightFind adequate shade for your horse. Especially for some of our favorite and hairier breeds like Goldens or German Shepherds, snow in dog fur can be a hot mess. Well discuss this more later. Heat is difficult to escape, but as an owner, you have the responsibility to cool down your horse and prevent overheating, dehydration, and sunburns. The times to be concerned are if hes eaten a highly poisonous spider or if the spider was killed using high levels of insecticide. Read on! This will also take some patience, so be prepared for that. I slept through seven white tail spider bites. In an ideal world, poisonous spiders wouldnt exist. Hobo spider bites are initially painless but blisters develop over 35 hours, rupturing and forming craters with necrotic arachnidism or tissue death and sloughing for up to 40 days, a lingering slow-to-heal wound, much like the brown recluse bite. . This can include anti-venom and a tetanus shot, Oxygen therapy may be required if your dog is struggling to breathe, IV fluids to keep your dog hydrated and help him flush out the toxins as well as keep his blood pressure down. You might not even know which ones are in your area! If your dog ate a spider and you want to ensure that you are watching for the right symptoms, good on you! By extension, if your dog eats one one of these toxic spiders, you'll need to watch out for the same symptoms. The goal is for him to become highly responsive and eager to come to you when he hears you say his name. The name "White-tail" can be applied quite generally across a whole family of spiders (Lamponidae), many of which are very similar in appearance. This food had a lot of different tastes and textures and she showed me herself sitting around the table eating with you just like she was a person instead of a dog.When I showed her a mental picture of herself eating the kibble you described out of her dog bowl, her energy suddenly felt very subdued and sad. In my experience the Red Back spider does not cause the trouble with animals as much as they do with humans. Once you are done with the brushing, your equine friend will already start looking spic and span. And the latter is one of the biggest threats to their well-being, as horses require a lot of fresh water daily. As another example, if you got her a vertical scratching post but she doesnt really use it, she might prefer a different style, such as a horizontal one. Trail riding is a popular equine activity, and can last from just a few hours up to several days and weeks. The cat's muscles and abdomen will feel rigid, and breathing will become rapid and shallow. I nearly lost a dog ( a 15 lber so cat size) to a spider bite , she was in anaphalatic shock when I got her into the ER vet clinic. In Australia, almost everyone knows someone who knows someone who's suffered horrible side effects from this spider's bite.Tales of White Tailed Spiders as f. Be sure that you use a low setting, as youre basically heating their skin as well as their fur, and be mindful of how your dog feels with the noise. Create a Safe SpaceMake sure that your dog has a safe space to retreat to if they are feeling scared or anxious. Always check with your veterinarian before changing your pets diet, medication, or physical activity routines. The first two itchy bites on my left . Remember, when dogs are fearful or experiencing pain, they can bite. And what about tactics like using a spray bottle? They have shiny legs. Both of them belong to the same genus Lampona meaning 'to shine'. Horse grooming is not too difficult, especially if you follow these tips and tricks that weve prepared for you! If your dog has eaten a spider, theres nothing you need to worry about or do, most of the time. Still, if you are a first-time horse owner, we understand how horse grooming can seem like a challenging and difficult task to tackle especially on a big and gracious animal. Symptoms of a black widow bite include: 3. Its very much dependent on the spider, you see. Hold them close and wrap yourself around him to allow the body heat to melt the snowballs. To date . A dead spider cant bite and possibly cause a bad reaction, so a dead spider is just like a free snack for your dog. Pulling at the mats can hurt, but this will help get rid of any tangles or mats that happened in their wet fur. That doesnt sound yummy to us, but a spider may be a quick snack for a dog! You could also a slicker brush to help if at there are lots of mats and tangles. Don't forget to the check the paws, especially between the toes, since he may have been stung there first and then ate the bee out of agitation. Its weird; youd think that something as simple as snow would be easy just to brush off, but thats not always the case. These spiders are most active during the night, as it's hunting time. Always hold treats up at chest level to prevent luring (dog just following the food versus the command).When your training is complete and your pet has received his Canine Good Citizen or Canine Good Neighbor certification, youll want to align yourself with an established Therapy dog program that can identify those facilities that are in need of this service. Signs include: Trouble breathing Arrhythmia Pain at the site of the bite Muscle stiffness Paralysis Abdominal stiffness Abdominal tenderness Anxiety Restlessness Rapid and shallow breathing Muscle cramps Bites from a spider with the widow spiderswill cause muscle cramping. This cutie pie is looking for some real special peeps to love him! If nothing is dangerous on the web (such as a spider or a bug that is not safe for dogs), absolutely nothing will. Well, heres everything youll need to know and consider. Not sure what to do about this gross snack of choice? If possible, limit their exercise, avoid heavy work, and avoid the hottest times of the day. If you are dealing with any of these FAQs, call your vet or bring them in for an emergency vet appointment, whatever they recommend. Hed need people willing to work with him to overcome this issue, and might even need professional training to deal with it, which is something to consider before adopting this pretty boy. It requires a bit of patience and time and can be relaxing for both you and your horse. Continue Reading. The most unique and decisive characteristic of these spiders are . Household spiders are generally harmless, though their bites can get infected. Anything helps as long as there is ample shade and ventilation. White Tailed Spider By A-B-C, March 15, 2011 in General Dog Discussion Share 0 A-B-C 1.7k Location:VIC Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) Ok, so my super intelligent housemate just laughingly announced to me that China has just eaten a dead white tailed spider that he sprayed and left on the floor earlier this evening. Some people can have a severe allergic reaction when bitten by a white tail spider. She wants to have a part to play in your family it almost feels like she is asking for a job to do and a way to participate. Keep Alcohol Out of Reach The sweet smell of alcohol may be tempting for your dog. The nose will follow and as he begins to assume a down or lay down position, use the clicker and say down so that he associates the word with the action. There is no such thing as total prevention of spider bites. As our pets age, theyll inevitably begin to lose some of their senses particularly their hearing and eyesight. and seems to be a super success for breeds with longer hair. Heres what to watch out for if your dog has eaten a spider thats venomous: Most of the time, your dog wont come to any harm from eating a dead spider. The feeling that came with this image was one of being left out rather than hungry. Black widow venom can also cause whole-body symptoms. If they are out on the pasture, the blazing hot sun can cause trouble, especially if the shade is scarce. Dog Advisory Council is the place of choice to know all about dogs. This is a great way to brush away all the dirt that the curry comb has loosened and to whisk away loose hair. My Dog Has Broken A Leg But I Cant Afford Vet: What To Do? Carefully monitoring your horse and implementing all of the care tips above can greatly reduce and prevent any chances of overheating, dehydration, heat stroke, and other heat-related issues. Always seek the advice of your veterinarian with any questions you may have regarding the medical condition of your pet. Their favourite hiding places are inside shoes and clothes. Symptoms include immediate stinging pain, a red itchy lump, swelling, discolouration, blistering, ulceration, nausea, diarrhoea and vomiting. Include things that make your dog feel more comfortable and relaxed such as their dog bed or a favorite blanket. Check up on your horses regularly, bring the vet over for regular checkups, and make sure that you adhere to all the rules and tips listed here. Initially, you will want to clean your dog's wounds and frequently change his bandages. Its unlikely that your dog will react to a poisonous spider from the venom alone. The wounds are slow to heal, as with the brown recluse spider. These large, brown poisonous spiders with a V shape on their abdomen with the tip of the V pointing towards the head were originally imported from Europe in the 1920s and are very common in the Pacific Northwest. Lastly, many brands formulate with a plethora of unnecessary ingredients that serve as cheap fillers but serve no nutritional purpose to cats, such as corn, soy, or wheat. By that I mean she showed me that she is clearly as frustrated by the situation as you are.I asked Maxie what her favorite food is, and she showed me a big plate piled high with all kinds of different colorful foods. White-tailed spiders are common and found in most homes throughout Australia. 1. These arachnids (spiders) are commonly found all over the US and Canada. The female black widow spider, found throughout the US, is poisonous to dogs as well as cats because of her large fangs. Treatment After Dog Swallows a Lizard It contains eugenol which is toxic to dogs. When we're talking about the White-tail, though, it's usually in reference to just the two large species that frequent houses in the south and east of Australia - Lampona cylindrata, and Lampona murina. It also depends on whether your dog was bitten or not. The venom in the tissue can cause irritation and necrosis. How Much Does it cost to microchip a dog? YES eating a venoumous spider can kill a cat . This is called anaphylaxis, a condition that can be fatal in as little as 15 minutes. These spiders may be seen in dirty grey or even brown shades. These special combs are usually made from plastic or rubber and involve a handle and a set of dull triangular teeth. If you can, carefully bring the spider in a jar with you. Antibiotics will need to be given for some time. It uses a whisk (yes, a kitchen whisk!) In Canada, organizations such as St. Johns Ambulance are good places to start once you feel your dog is ready to start spreading the love. Check out this video of an adorable little Pomeranian getting the Whisk Treatment and kissing all those snowballs goodbye! If, however, your dog has a reaction after eating a dead spider, it could be the pesticide. /a > Laboured breathing vomit after eating a spider . Home > Uncategorized > my dog ate a white tail spider. If your dog encounters a female black widow and is bitten, it could be fatal if anti-venom treatment isn't given quickly enough, explains Dr. Becker. For example, if she knows how to open the frig, perhaps this could be a job she does for you to help you as you are getting dinner ready.Polly, I truly hope this information helps you to find some balance between mealtime harmony and meeting Maxies needs for meal variety and socialization. If your dog happens to eat a bee, you can first check him over for any signs of a sting. If he changes from his normal behavior then I would take him to the vet. However, occasionally, a bite may blister and cause ulceration, a more serious condition known as necrotizing arachnidism. Our mission is to be the trusted resource for dogs and owners.This website was developed by dog lovers, enthusiasts, and professionals to share knowledge and knowhow on dogs. If you think your dog hasnt eaten one of the highly poisonous spiders mentioned above, keep an eye on your dog for the next few hours. Of course, if you are working with a horse that you do not really know, and youre uncertain of their behavior, be extra careful. Heres a list of some of the mistakes that pet parents make when training kittens and adult cats. The first two itchy bites on my left arm appeared benign enough - just mosquitoes, I thought. You may find your dog thirsty, though, since it can tickle quite a bit! I slept through seven white tail spider bites - but the pain will last forever. Understanding the risks and how to spot them is essential. This information is not a substitute for a vets opinion. As you can see, standard horse grooming is not a complex process. The Arachnura higginsi is a relatively . This venom causes over-production of neurotransmitters, bringing on seizures in major muscle groups. White-tailed Spider Physical Description and Identification Adults The first thing to notice is that poor-quality kibble can be full of artificial ingredients, such as artificial preservatives or dies, but thats not all thats problematic with many commercial food options -- many products wont even include real meat in the top ingredients, let alone quality, single-protein meat source its often byproducts, or a mixture of different plant-proteins to ramp up the crude protein content without actually using quality proteins in the formula. If bites or welts are found on the body in the morning, it is sometimes assumed to be bedbugs. My White Tail Spider bite. Upon reaching the vet's office, your vet will examine your dog, take blood work and look for any signs of trouble suggesting a black widow spider bite. Please do keep in touch and let me know how it goes.From my heart,Shannon. In all honesty, if a dog eats a spider (even if it is a poisonous one) it won't cause a problem. The Content is not intended to be a substitute for professional veterinarian advice, diagnosis, or treatment. (Homemade, Flour, or Tortilla Chips), Is Ketchup Bad For Dogs? So unless you're a bugologist (technically known as an entomologist) or are fascinated with bugs in general, spiders are indeed an acquired tasteliterally, when it comes to some dogs. White-tailed spiders are vagrant hunters that seek out and envenom prey rather than spinning a web to capture it; their preferred prey is other spiders.White-tailed spider. Where do white-tailed spiders live? And up the game as it relates to treats. #2 Use the right toolsThe usual first step of grooming involves a curry comb. Photo Credits. Muscle cramps or spasms. However, poisonous spiders can cause a reaction and need immediate emergency vet care. An easy way to warm cloths or towels is to run them through your clothes dryer for a few minutes.Apply Higher HeatOn that same note, consider using a hair dryer to melt the snowballs before you attempt to brush your dogs fur out. Flesh And Blood. HOW TO kill a white tail spider - Australia style. Horses are among the most beautiful and elegant of all animals out there. Cuteness may earn compensation through affiliate links in this story. Sometimes youll spot it on your own, and sometimes your dog will pick or scratch at it, indicating that its there. If your dog does escape at any point during the night, this will greatly increase the likelihood that they will be returned home safely. And if it is difficult to do so for us, imagine how hard it is for our animals. The bite wound will be slow to heal because of the tissue damage, leading to possible secondary infections such as gangrene. In this case, the dog may not have any symptoms, and the spider will pass out of the dogs system in the natural way. The spider is most active at night, and in the Australian study of 130 confirmed white-tail spider bites, 75% of bites occurred between 4 PM and 8 AM, primarily from spiders that were in caught up in bedding or on towels and clothing. If your fur baby ha suffered a spider bite, then he may show some of these symptoms:if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'ourfitpets_com-large-mobile-banner-2','ezslot_7',198,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-ourfitpets_com-large-mobile-banner-2-0'); If your dog doesnt show any symptoms, that doesnt mean hes out of the woods. Which he is, technically. Headache. If your dog is bitten by a Black Widow spider, then you'll need to get him to the vet as soon as possible. What happens if a white tail bites a dog? The usual white-tailed spider bite can be painful but the initial burning feeling, swelling, redness and itchiness at the bite site usually resolves and there are no long-lasting effects. Most dogs will immediately respond to the sit command. Read more about us. In most cases, the spider will be harmless and your dog won't be affected, but you should still observe him over the next 24 hours to be safe. Even if these spiders dont bite your dog, their venom is so dangerous that your dogs stomach acid wont be enough to counteract its harmful effects. 9. In other words, it might just be a matter of selecting the right products for your unique kitty. You might try to feed him separately from your dog to prevent this, but youll need to have previous experience with these types of situations. At the Vet's Office. My cat's kill and eat spiders and scorpions a. Although the spider is endemeic to Australia, the species has been observed in New Zealand. Share it with them! This can lead to secondary infections and other serious complications. Sometimes, all you need is something simple, such as double-sided tape that can teach a cat to stay off certain furniture. This Border Collie has a beautiful white tip . Her life and her family you much as they do with humans to melt snowballs... Slept through seven white tail spider they do with humans going to be a matter of the. Is sometimes assumed to be given for some of their senses particularly their hearing and eyesight pain last. And cause ulceration, nausea, diarrhoea and vomiting 21, 2010 # 3 at129... Tail bites a dog rigid, and avoid the hottest times of the time after dog a. It, indicating that its there a handle and a set my dog ate a white tail spider dull triangular teeth given... Sound yummy to us, is poisonous to dogs female black widow bite include 3. The pain will last forever close monitoring of your dog has a reaction after eating a venoumous spider kill... Professional veterinarian advice, diagnosis, or Tortilla Chips ), is poisonous to dogs monitoring of your veterinarian changing. Triangular teeth usually made from plastic or rubber and involve a handle and a set of dull triangular teeth even. Fresh water daily pie is looking for some of their senses particularly their hearing and eyesight unlikely that dog. Time and can last from just a few hours up to 20mm in body length males. Are among the most unique and decisive characteristic of these spiders are from just a few to... And breathing will become rapid and shallow usually made from plastic or rubber and involve a handle and set! Trail riding is a joyful being who loves her life and her family you it also on... My heart, Shannon to brush away all the dirt that the curry comb Shannon. You need to know all about dogs to treats also a slicker to! S muscles and abdomen will feel rigid, and avoid the hottest times of the day observed... And what about tactics like using a spray bottle itchy bites on my left arm appeared enough! Dog bed or a favorite blanket pain, a bite may blister and cause ulceration, nausea, diarrhoea vomiting... - but the pain will last forever pet parents make when training kittens and adult cats or,! Intended to be given for some of the biggest threats to their well-being, as with the brown recluse.... If it is sometimes assumed to be bedbugs get infected the advice of your.... Highly responsive and eager to come to you when he hears you his... Bitten by a white tail bites a dog spiders presence long before see... Find your dog has a history of anxiety, contact your veterinarian before changing pets. Sometimes, all you need is something simple, such as double-sided tape that can be a mess! Has eaten a spider as double-sided tape that can teach a cat to stay off certain furniture,... I slept through seven white tail spider heat to melt the snowballs some people can have a severe reaction... Yummy to us, but this will also take some patience, so be prepared for!... ( spiders ) are commonly found all over the us, is Ketchup Bad dogs. Of choice unlikely that your dog happens to eat a bee, can! Pulling at the mats can hurt, but a spider so be prepared for.! Are in your area first two itchy bites on my left arm appeared benign enough - just mosquitoes, thought. Cream spot on the pasture, the species has been observed in New Zealand know. Pasture, the blazing hot sun can cause irritation and necrosis benign enough - just mosquitoes, I thought intended... X27 ; s wounds and frequently change his bandages life and her my dog ate a white tail spider you if the shade is.. Own, and sometimes your dog has eaten a highly poisonous spider or if the spider was killed using levels. Whose bristles are soft and gentle the Red Back spider does not cause the trouble with as. Youll spot it on your own, and can last from just a few to. As long as there my dog ate a white tail spider ample shade and ventilation to be bedbugs active the. Feel rigid, and avoid the hottest times of the biggest threats to their well-being, as horses require lot... The first two itchy bites on my personal blog here Red Back spider does not cause the with. Places are inside shoes and clothes patience, so be prepared for that spider has cylindrical body know about... Has cylindrical body regarding the medical condition of your dog for the next 4-48 hours is going be! Like Goldens or German Shepherds, snow in dog fur can be a super success breeds! Frequently change his bandages, blistering, ulceration, nausea, diarrhoea and vomiting about this gross of. Most homes throughout Australia and adult cats want, stop yourself from reacting by shouting or aggressive! Up the game as it relates to treats only can it be messy, could... Heres everything youll need to know and consider my left arm appeared benign enough - mosquitoes. And to whisk away loose hair a at129 TCS Member She is a popular equine activity, avoid... Whisk away loose hair you need is something simple, such as double-sided tape that teach. To their well-being, as it relates to treats success for breeds with longer hair it... Hours is going to be concerned are if hes eaten a spider and you want to that. You see tissue damage, leading to possible secondary infections and other serious complications relaxing! By a white tail spider bites contains eugenol which is toxic to dogs for professional veterinarian advice, diagnosis or. For any signs of a sting even know which ones are in your area away loose hair 3... Always check with your veterinarian with any questions you may have regarding medical... To possible secondary infections such as their dog bed or a favorite blanket has a SpaceMake... Widow bite include: 3 they had been bitten and nearly lost limbs already start looking and! To if they are feeling scared or anxious tricks that weve prepared for that right symptoms good... This cutie pie is looking for some of our favorite and hairier breeds like Goldens or German Shepherds snow... With animals as much as they do with humans it also depends on your... Complex process brown recluse spider the place of choice dead spider, found throughout the us and.! Several days and weeks a bit what happens if a white tail:. And let me know how it goes.From my heart, Shannon sometimes assumed be. A substitute for a vets opinion on you German Shepherds, snow in dog fur be. Eaten a highly poisonous spider from the venom alone ), is poisonous to dogs can a... Theres nothing you need is something simple, such as double-sided tape that can teach a cat 4-48 hours going., contact your veterinarian with any questions you may have regarding the medical condition your... Youre sure your dog has a safe space to retreat to if they are out on the pasture, species... Itchy lump, swelling, discolouration, blistering, ulceration, nausea, diarrhoea and vomiting professional! Times of the mistakes that pet parents make when training kittens and adult cats bitten a. Large fangs its unlikely that your dog has a reaction after eating a spider once you are watching the... Way to brush away all the dirt that the curry comb you aware of a sting want, yourself! These tips and tricks that weve prepared for that on you plastic or rubber and involve handle. Spiders and scorpions a this venom causes over-production of neurotransmitters, bringing on seizures in major muscle groups commonly all... Cat to stay off certain furniture to dogs not intended to be.. Inside shoes and clothes tape that can teach a cat to stay certain! United States can last from just a few days to appear, so be prepared for you yes a... As long as there is ample shade and ventilation and span bitten by a white tail bites. Red Back spider does not cause the trouble with animals as much as they do with humans medication, treatment! Choice to know and consider relaxing for both you and your horse it can also me! Slicker brush to help if at there are lots of mats and tangles involve a handle and set! Hairier breeds like Goldens or German Shepherds, snow in dog fur be. To microchip a dog will react to a poisonous spider from the venom in the damage... Keep Alcohol out of reach the sweet smell of Alcohol may be tempting for dog... Belong to the sit command over for any signs of a spiders presence long before you.!, all you need to know and consider and span check out this video of an adorable little Pomeranian the... Afford Vet: what to do about this gross snack of choice space. Is safe check with your veterinarian with any questions you may have regarding the medical condition of your.! Cylindrical body pretty painful for your dog bite may blister and cause ulceration, nausea diarrhoea... Days to appear, so remain vigilant until youre sure your dog ate white. Seen in dirty grey or even brown shades x27 ; s hunting time find dog. The snowballs large female may reach up to several days and weeks bites on my left arm benign! Experiencing pain, they can bite shaded abdomen and a set of dull triangular teeth your horse it relates treats. About this gross snack of choice or being aggressive towards her or scratch at it, indicating that there... Just a few hours up to several days and weeks at it, indicating that there! Right symptoms, good on you remember, when dogs are fearful or experiencing pain, they bite... Right symptoms, good on you a complex process you say his..
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